Saturday, 15th November 2008 - 10:04CET
Should couples live together before marriage, young MP asks
Labour MP Owen Bonnici this morning asked if it was time to consider encouraging young couples to live together for sometime before they are married.
Speaking on the budget debate in Parliament he said this was something which should be considered in a serious and mature situation. This could perhaps help young couples understand what it meant to live with their partner before taking on a much bigger committment.
Regarding the proposed works at St John's CoCathedral, he proposed that the forthcoming environmental impact assessment should not be paid by the applicant. This, he said, would be a first but should become the norm in all cases of development.
Dr Bonnici asked if it was true that Heritage Malta wanted to sell part of the national costume collection.
RSS
Comments
The Goverment has the right to influence people.
It does the same with
anti smoking campaign
HIV awareness campaigns
anti littering campaigns
Political propagandas
Do all the above influence personal choice ?
It is time that the church values are not applied to whole population as if they were the de facto law. I think increasing awareness about this matter is positive.
To really get to know some one you need to live them.
Thank you for finally confirming my point. It took quite a while, but in the end, you provided the responses that I had hoped to elicit. Marriage and cohabitation are personal matters of personal choice regarding human relationships into which no government should stick its nose. They certainly are not commercial arrangements.
Yet, MP Owen Bonnici proposes to make it official government policy "to encourage young people to live together for some time before they are married" - to "try out" different partners until the "right one" comes along; in the same way that we conduct commercial transactions. I would be willing to wager that there is no government on earth that actually does this.
People enter into cohabitation because they are unwilling or unable to make a commitment and because they believe that it provides them with an easy way out when the going gets tough - which often happens in most human relationships.
Is cohabitation for prospective married couples the best proposal Owen Bonnici can come up with? I wonder how this could solve, in any way, the ever-growing number of separations that are scarring and blighting the moral and social fabric of our nation.
In order to help young couples to understand their partner before taking upon themselves the full weight of the marriage committment, a better preparation during their engagement period is absolutely vital. Knowing each other well doesn't necessitate cohabitation but finding the right and enough time to express and learn mutual views.
Increasing the number of cohabitants on the island will not strengthen society's social fabric by one iota.
I hate to make comparisons like the one you're making, since you cannot compare marriage to either driving or buying a suit. But, if you want to insist, I can say that, by law, retail stores must have a return policy applicable for a number of days, in case you happened to make an impulse buy, or the product is not to your satisfaction. Of course, such comparison is ridiculous just as much as your comparison, the point being that once we start comparing marriage to buying a product, getting a service or training for a license, your arguments are always on the losing end. I wouldn't go down this road if I were you.
On the other hand, if we just take marriage for what it is, it is obvious to me that living with the person before getting married can only serve as an eye-opener. For better or for worse. Might it not be the case that cohabitating couples are emotionally more committed than married ones, considering that having no legal status to bind them, their bond being truly made up of respect and love towards each other, not marred by a legal obligation?
You're missing a key point. In all your comparisons, you failed to consider the fact that in a cohabiting relationship, both parties AGREE to cohabit and both stand to gain or lose from such an agreement. In the case of your examples, you're expecting someone to forgo his right to enjoy property in order for you to enjoy it yourself.
If you treat relationships and having a partner/spouse/husband/wife as owning a property, then I seriously fail to see why you even bothered reply to these messages! Being in a relationship is something than can hardly be compared to other commitments, let alone to using someone else's property to 'test it', as you seem to imply!!
And now, my two cents. I doubt extensive studies would reveal a higher prevalence of divorce/separation amongst couples who cohabit before marriage when compared to a 'control' group that didn't cohabit. Moreover, one should consider that cohabiting couples would tend to have a different mindset/belief system from those who don't, and this might influence their decision to divorce or separate after marriage, unlike others who are religious and would opt against divorce irrespective of abuse or infidelity for instance.
When you drive with an L-plate, there is an experienced teacher there with you in the car at all times guiding you and holding your hand. Who will do that for you in a cohabitational relationship - your parents or the other party's relatives?
Cohabitation is generally an unspoken admission of an inability to make a commitment. Imagine walking into a clothing store and asking the owner if you could take out a suit for a period of time explaining that, after having used it, you will come back to pay for it if you decide to keep it or return it to the store owner if you decide that you don’t like it. If you know of a clothing store like this, I’d be interested in giving it a try. Cheap way to stay fashionable.
BTW, Mr. Buttigieg, it is unclear if your comment “coming from a Nationalist you can take this as a double compliment” is directed at me. If it is, you are wrong. I am not “a Nationalist” nor have I ever been one; and please don’t misconstrue my comments as compliments for Mr. Bonnici. They aren't.
There is no set defined period. Each couple progresses using its own specific pace. Some people marry after just a few months, others take years before they're ready to take the plunge. Nothing can guarantee a long-lasting happy marriage, not even living together before marriage. However, it is the "living separate from your parents" part that is most important in my opinion, with "living with your future spouse" taking on secondary importance. Alas, many couples are still entering marriage whereby they are not only faced by marital challenges, but moreso by the challenges that come from not having one's parents take care of household issues. This might prove to be too much to grasp at one go for some people, so a gradual step by step change in state will help a lot in lowering stress levels!
How long a couple should live with each others so they can understand each others and then get through happy- lasting marriage?
Incredible but true, what O. Bonnici is proposing is tantamount to taking driving lessons before getting your licence.
What you are intimating is to give someone who has never driven, a driving licence after doing the theory examination....with all the consequences that entails.
Owen - coming from a Nationalist you can take this as a double compliment - WELL DONE!!
Your comparison of living together before marriage to driving a car without a license is logically unapplicable. Living together before marriage is not like driving a car without a license, but, rather, like driving a car with an L-plate, with the intension of sitting for the test when you feel prepared.
While it is true that there is a correlation between living together before marriage and the divorce rate of the couples in question, people should not be regarded as mere statistics. Each case has to be considered individually, and some people feel that living together before taking the big step is very helpful, in the sense that rather than having a big bang (i.e. you're put directly on the steering wheel without any sort of training), they would already know what it means to: pay their own bills, do house chores and cleaning, stick up with each other even when they're not in the best of moods, best of looks, or when they're sick, and to remain together (hopefully) even when things are not plain sailing. If they fail these tests, then it would be of no use proceeding further. Prevention is better than cure.
QUOTE@"what will living together before marrage solve???"
Let me enlighten you - it shows a person's real traits of character, some of which would go undetected in a traditional relationship. It also makes you grow up and if it doesn't work out you are not stuck in a failed-marriage.
Personally, if I had married the person I thought was the one, I would probably be separated today. We looked like the perfect couple but living together proved we were not really made for each other.
Instead I married 5 years ago after having lived with with my husband for 2 years before taking the step. Unlike the first live in this one proved to be built on solid foundations.
I will encourage anyone to do this as, from personal experience, the benefits are enormous. If it works - well and good - go for it. If it does not you are not another marriage breakdown statistic.
From a philosophical point of view; The state must always look to the common good and not what you think is right for you....but what is right for everyone....The state has the obligation to protect his citizens. This comes because marriage is not a private institution but a public, social and institution transmission of human life.
Is Cohabitation the answer for a strong marriage? No it is not for then you are sending the message that life, first try and than make it true...Imagine sex....all adoloscence during puberty do make sex to know by fact what does it mean a sexual intercourse....or when speaking of drugs give them the ecstasy to try what does it mean.....you went from extreme to the other....and neither if the church is 10% she must continue speak in favour of human dignity....
I tell Mr.Bonnici that if the Church principles are not his principles next time must not swear on a crucifix
My 13-year-old nephew, who like others his age is raring to go, is just dying with eagerness to begin driving a car. Would you mind very much if he borrowed your car for a while to try his hand at it? If he likes it, he promises to take the necessary driving tests to get his driver's licence. Do you think that your insurance company would mind? What was that you say? No way? Oh, I understand.
Oh yes, I nearly forgot. My nephew says that if he finds driving a car boring and he decides not to get his driver’s licence after all, he might like to have a go at flying an airplane without a licence. Who knows? After wrecking a car or two or an airplane or two, he might just find the right car or airplane with which he is compatible.
As an MP, would you please consider sponsoring some ground-breaking legislation to allow my nephew to try his hands at these two activities? He is itching to hear your reply.
And if you take a look around you, its normally the couples the have been dating since they were 14, and never really experienced life that get separated!
Leave religion out of this one, and just let your kids stretch their legs, i'm sick seeing mummy's boys still go see mummy for food after they get married.
Yes I agree, getting married before living together is the IDEAL situation, but this world is not longer an ideal world. Maybe it s even far from it
When you live with your parents, because they love you, and because you have lived with them all your life there is a lack of independence.
All young people should get there efforts together, rent a flat or house with friends so that they can enjoy and learn from their experiences.
Be courageous and learn to be independent!
Unlike you gurus, I have first hand experience.......and believe me its an experience I recommend to anyone. I had three live-ins and married the third one. The first two would have been such a mistake. Instead of happily married I would have been in a separation case.
The future cannot be forseen. Couples can live with each other for years to see if they are meant for each other and then decide to get married. After getting married, they could easily have trouble in their marraige. I think both couples has to work very hard to strengthen their relationship in order to keep a good marraige.
I think the mentality of the people are changing and that is why we are having many separations. Some people wants not just the cake but also the icing on the cake.
What about Heritage Malta....once again selling our silver....this is crazy ! Who is accountable ?
@Jake Mamo: can you explain why many marriages are failing because couples which marry find out that they can't stick each other when living together? maybe a research on this would be appropriate.
Owen Bonnici just made a statement and I am sure he is not imposing anything. The point is that he could have suggested legal implications of cohabitation to promote this. It is an individual choice to do what s/he wants before getting married.
I cohabitate and I am definitely much happier than many couples who are married. The most important thing is to share everything like a married couples so that burdens are shared equally. The rest is personal chemistry. If the chemistry is not right between a couple, by cohabitating, this issue surfaces out quickly. Cohabitation matures people and stops them from being anymore mummy & daddy's children.
However, I do find the proposal to encourage couples to live together before marriage worrying (even though good-intentioned). People who need a push to live outside their parent's home are definitely not prepared enough for independent life.
For many years we have been told to go out and have sexual fun but be careful by using condoms. So the condom factories got bldy rich while people still got infected with and dying of STD's including aids. Then the pharmaceutical manufacturers got even richer by selling very expensive Aids medicines.
Same for promiscuuity, co-habitation etc. They are all chimeras that eventually hurt more and more people. Only the rich get richer by convincing people to do what they want them to do.
'Having said all this, all are free to co-habit whenever they like. The responsibility is theirs. My comments below were intended for the gullible who may think that co-habiting is-easy. It is very-expensive.'
But in reality is the responsibility is theirs?? Ask the mothers and grand mothers please!
The government pays social benefits, increasing numbers of unwanted-babies –un-wanted pregnancy and the babies born with unknown fathers - (Currently 25% of our future kids with unknown fathers)
What about family bonds??
In today’s liberal world, as soon as the reach 18 years (and in many cases even much younger than this) they just quit homes, and if they opt to stay with parents they only do that to save money. In most cases, the ‘man’ (boy friend) is just there to have sex, and the partner (girl friend) parents pay for accommodation.
Here, I only see two crystal clear facts: women’s rights, and unwanted born kids rights are zilch
Females rights in general having are having one direction to go: drainage
The following does not need researching: Marital and family problems are very costly. A lot of money is involved in separation, child care, court sentences and divorce procedings when this is introduced. MOST OF THE MONEY ENDS UP IN LAWYERS POCKETS. So be careful in interpreting what politicians say since most of these are lawyers.
Trying hard to keep a solid family is the best policy. Once it fails, then so be it and as Christ said to his fellow citizens: Moses introduced divorce because of their hard-headedness. My apologies for quoting the Christ but just to show that this is not a new social problem but is as old as humanity. Only the way we deal with it is different.
Having said all this, all are free to co-habit whenever they like. The responsibility is theirs. My comments below were intended for the gullible who may think that co-habiting is-easy. It is very-expensive.
By whom?
Ms.Miriam Micallef, how about this for research (but you can't just google this off European websites; you need to do it in Malta) : why not dig up the spate of annulment judgements given by Curia or in separation judgements in Courts to see how many marriages started foundering the minute untested couples started living in the same space together?
Who are we to pass judgements on others? Yes we all agree that everyone is responsible for his action and that kids are to be given paramount importance in relationships. This is where the state has to intervene, to give these kids the same rights as others. Mr Owen Bonnici opened the door; he did not close it.
"Dr Bonnici asked if it was true that Heritage Malta wanted to sell part of the national costume collection."
Does anybody care? Not one single comment has referred to either so far.
Both these items are important. Do we only have one track minds and only care whether couples should cohabit or not? No wonder our heritage is suffering.
thank you for being so enlightened.
that is why i am proposing to the government that legislation should be provided that social services are only awarded in the case the child is registered in the civil records with both the name of the father and the mother.
the records of the church are immaterial as in malta the state and the church are two seperate entities.
the state should not be a police officer. through a small bit of legislation the fraud being made today can be regulated immediately. it is a question that you have to think out of the box and be creative. it seems that our governance system is not creative enough.
i hope i have now clarified my position
through social services females are being encouraged to be single mothers. it is only the child born out of marriage that suffers all his life as such persons remain without knowing their real father. legislation should be introduced that social assisatnce is only availabe when the child parents are both registered in defence of children.
Children Commissioner: you should be campaigning for this legislation !!
Fresh wind from America and Britain? No, it's a foul stench.
Even mentioning it should be illegal.....Burn the witches!!!!!!!
Haha....we are so medievel it hurts!!!!
The same people who are aghast at such a proposal were probably dead set against the introduction of civil marriage.
A big TINDAHALX to all you bigots is in order...If youºre against cohabitaion...just DOnt do it. I on the other hand, shall do whatever I like...as long as its legal of course.
The reality is that today many couples are already doing it, although some of you still believe that we are living in the 1950's
Life changed in these last few decades.
Focusing on encouraging the practice can easily be interpreted as lack of maturity and narrow-mindedness, which is probably the opposite impression to that intended.
Cohabiting before marriage might surely help make a couple much more aware of how it is to leave their parents home to live together but surely won't lead to any guarantees that problems won't arise in the future, humans change constantly as they grow up simple fact, it is more an issue of mentality more then anything else.
For those curious my partner & I were never married, live together, have children & I can assure you we're a lucky happy family as we are.
Good luck for the future to couples living together before marriage....!!!
But can we have an MP to think of those hundreds (if not thousands) of childless couples who, budget after budget are always forgotten?! These couples have to fork out several thousands of Euros to try to get a baby by medical interventions or to adopt a child from abroad. But for Malta, in order to qualify as a family they have to have at least one child immaterial if they are married or not in the first place. So, single parents and those cohabiting with another partner (with all due respect) are given attention but a married childless couple is doomed! Where is the Catholic Church please?
@Miriam Maria Micallef
@Alex Ellul
@L Galea
I totally agree with you, as well as with many others point of views.
----------------------------------------
Any sort of control is needed or else, the whole system (secularism or sexu-lism) would fall.
The finical earthquake the world currently facing is due to uncontroable financial market. The death certificate of Capitalism and free-market is on the process of being issued. If anybody think that in Malta we are safe, please think again. Governments don’t do miracles, if you earn 1000 Euros a month you can’t spend 1500. You must live with what you earn or (die). Unfortunately, by default, peoples don’t like hearing negative news. But, probably, peoples may understand the world financial crises when they don’t have money to buy food, pay electricity bills or buying fuel!
Having the above reality in mind. Can Dr. Bonnici think of the following reality?
With the increasing number of born kids with unknown fathers, coupled with the increasing number of ‘social benefits abusers by single parents, where the government (MLP - PN or any other government) will get money from? - the collapse of the system is looming!
Big Brother Lives...
Maltese politicians are so self-important
they are now 'asking' what people should do before marriage.
Sounds like there are absolutely no political and economic problems
in Malta.
With politicians like this, no wonder in Malta politics enters absolutely everything.
What is the difference then of couple, cohabiting before marriage or instead of marriage? And whose business is that? If it is of Parliament concern, then they should introduce divorce and after that they will have moral rights to debate if people should cohabiting or not. I would understand all the values of marriages if everyone would be given that opportunity. But why you are discussing way of living of only those couples, who are entitled for future marriage?
As for me, I would prefer to live in society where people would not cohabit but would be married with right to divorce and to marry again. That would work.
Now, young couple in Malta see that so many couples around them are cohabiting because Marriage (one chance) did not work, that they stand a choice: or else they cohabit before marriage, trying to learn partner, or else they end up separated and cohabiting.
@Joe Buttigieg. Do you really believe that violent individuals come only from separated parents? If you do, you're living in cuckoo-land, if you don't, then your whole argument falls flat on its face.
The first relationship ended after 11/2 years when it was evident that we were not made for each other. The second lasted 4 years and we have now been married for 15 years (in december).
Had I not lived together I (we) would have committed a big mistake and probably got married with all the problems that a marriage breakdown would have brought about.
I would also had lost the chance of ever meeting / settling down / marrying with my wife. Real traits of character come when you live together not drive your girlfriend/fiancee back home after an evening together.
Therefore from my experience, Owen you are correct.
However we are living in a world that every home has a separation, teen-age pregnancy,
extra marital affairs. How often do we make decisions based on what is right for us versus ' what is normal' -what is expected. Everyone we touch becomes a part of us, a part of our history, of our memories, of our life, of our hearts.
It's alright if we step a litle back and think twice about who we let become a part of us.
O.K girls ? .............slow down.
How can a couple divorce if they're not married?
It migt be that married couples who had previously lived together have a higher chance of seperationg/divorcing since such couples are usually more liberal, thus less likely to put up with abuse. It is likely that in the countries where the research you mentioned was done, a woman who gets married before living with the person is more likely to stay with the same person even if there's abuse.
I am a 42 year old that lived with my then girlfriend for 4 years, This helped us a lot & made us realise what living together is all about & how difficult life can be, We have been together for 10 years or so Now & Very happy, we have a 3 year old & another on the way, who are you to judge others, that living together is madness, this is reality sweetie.. Old fashion times are way over. Wake up.
What a streak of genius! I wonder if Mr Abela would agree with me that if I would like to raise animals in my house without cairing for the discomfort this can cause my neighbours, I should be allowed to do it.
Now do not tell me that cohabitation and divorce only concern those who are directly involved, that is just the couple because that's a fallacy. I believe that every human action affects the whole society one way or another. That is when as a result of separation on the part of the parents a child develops a violent character, society suffers from this action. Don't you think that society has the right to say something about that? No man is an island!
How can a couple co-habit? where? who will pay for the residence, the government? From where will they get the money? What if it fails, who will keep the apartment? What are the ramifications of this proposition? Did you think about the economics of it all? Will they spend all their money on an apartment, end up in court, spend their money on lawyers, then start co-habiting all over again to try to find the perfect partner, and keep on repeating the cycle until the perfect prince finds the perfect princess?
I Abela (1 hour, 6 minutes ago)
While I appreciate everybody's comments, I must say that if you don't like it, DON'T DO IT. If I like it, LET ME DO IT. Your catholic and conservative comments are not doing anyone any good. Live and Let Live.
NOT everyone has the same beliefs so let US choose without prejudice........ I am sure that most of the 'MORALLY CORRECT' people here are double-faced, farizej...... you cannot face reality......... NO TO BLIND MARRIAGES
First step should be for the government to recognise couples living together, giving them rights and responsibilities same as married couples......
Owen Bonnice is wrong-footed on this issue. Many couples I know lived together before getting married, yet many of them are today separated. Though this doesn't mean that living together before, will disqualify you from a successful marriage, the point is that living together is not the answer. The answer is backing off from the "you stepped on my right to have rights so I prop up my right to deny you of your rights" mentality.
Makes it look like Malta is the last bastion of world morality.
But what it actually is; lots of pontificating people sticking their nose in other peoples’ way of life when they should be minding their own business.
It is a question of priorities, if one does not want to marry,he/she can life alone or with whom he/she wants.Normally when these realize that they won’t inherit the other, instead of going to the notary they seek government’s help.
In truth we are incessantly bombarded by promiscuous behaviour,money and red carpet fever and as the Maltese saying goes “ta’ kuljum iwegga r-ras” (routine becomes stale and boring).Married life and children are seen as a cage, sometimes thorny and sometimes golden, but still a cage.
The short cut is always more attractive, even so when our very generous welfare state makes it such that those who work 17 hours a day to make end meet, pay for others who do not.
A good point, yes. However the discussions raised in parliament should be specifically these - legal recognition for cohabiting couples etc and not discussing the moral ramifications of cohabitation, which in my humble opinion is strictly the domain of the persons concerned.
people often come up with the argument that you have to live with a person to know who you're going to marry. WRONG. if your partner has any big problems - alcoholism, drug abuse, chronic laziness, aggressive nature....you don't have to live with the person to find that out - it just comes out after a while, and if you're not blinded by love you'll see it.
having said that, you could live with a person for 10 years before you get married. but it won't change anything if that person decides to run off with someone else 5 years after marriage, or decides that he's gay 20 years down the line.
if two people live together, they'll get to know about each other's flaws - yes, even the little ones. then they get picky and annoyed at just about anything. they go into marriage already knowing ALL ABOUT their significant other. what's left to achieve? what's left to find out about each other? not much.
Did your parents do so Owen?
Did you do so?
A lot of research, (including research conducted by Maltese researches such as Dr. rev. Paul Galea) proves that cohabitation kills marriage before it even happens. our parents never had to live together before they married, my parents have been happily married for 25 years and they only knew each other for 7 months before they tied the knot. i'm sure you can think of many other examples of this.
living together prior to marriage takes out the anticipation and excitement of the future. it takes away the stepping stone, from single life to married life and commitment. once a couple have been living together for a while, they tend to get married because it's the next step and they can't really break from their lifestyle that they're now used to.
if there's a problem, it's very hard to break away from that relationship if you're already living with the person. one has to think of moving out, finding another place to stay, paying the rent alone, splitting shared items, etc...so more often than not, they take the easy road and stay together.
In one of those links (the one before last)
“In addition, couples who cohabit are less religious than those who marry without prior cohabitation. On this point there are several studies that indicate a correlation between religiosity and marital happiness as well as stability”
Sounds like a case of religious zealousness. It seems to imply that religious people are more likely to have happier and more stable marriages than others. This is Ms Amberts personal opinion and interpretation of the facts – hardly etched in stone.
“She also opines that a propensity to cohabit soon after starting a romantic relationship leads to a pattern of instability. People who go through a series of de facto relationships are more likely contract quick marriages, which are harder to remain faithful to”
I beg to differ but this does in no way mean that couples who do not cohabitate before marriage, go on to experience stable marriages later on. And how many relationships that end up in marriage can one go through here in Malta? (hint: one)
if this has something todo with the mlp's Bidu Gdid, you are wrong.
this had been happening for age's !!!
Another Parir Hazin !!!
I would like to have access to the research you quote and especially its direct relevance to Malta. Last time I checked divorce was not an option. So do not use research at your convenience, now that is very very dangerous.
Hon Bonnici tabled a query. The answer might be yes or it might be no, but proper research must be undertaken before a proposal should be shot down.
Some Links can be found below:
http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/1999/02/02-12-99tdc/02-12-99dnews-2.asp
http://lists101.his.com/pipermail/smartmarriages/2006-June/003062.html
http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/cohabit.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/zcohabit.htm
http://www.civitas.org.uk/hwu/cohabitation.php
Populism does not suit your style at all :)